This post shares my recent learning regarding ASD particularly in relation to Len Demler and the Crewe murders. Yes, Len organised it but No, Len didn’t do it because Len had Autism (now called ASD). Enjoy.
The Background
Len Demler was a Pukekawa farmer who in the 1970s lost his daughter and his son-in-law to murder. He became infamous within NZ at the time as an unusual character as he was the cops’ number one suspect and he clearly had Autism. The Crewe Murders were the first time that the NZ public saw in real time corruption from the authorities as in October 1970 corrupt factions of the NZ Police planted evidence against Arthur Allan Thomas (AAT) and Police and media suddenly moved their attention off Demler and onto AAT. Funny that land transactions all occurred the same month eh?
I wrote a book and published it I Fed The Baby (IFTB) on the 50th anniversary of the murders. IFTB showed that Maisey was a very rich lady; that the murder weapon was a pistol not a rifle. I named Leslie Sinton (Kohimarama) and Pamela Ann Boroevich (Te Kuiti) as “the woman who fed the baby” and a lot more. I basically spoke for the researcher John Ingley and endorsed his work. Except for naming a couple of boys as the murder contractors (I now think Bob Souter was the man who pulled the triggers) I stand behind John 100%. Len organised it and made it all happen though.
Autism – ASD
I have engaged recently with an author and researcher who has likewise “had the bit between his teeth” over these murders.
They have been billed as ASD induced – by me! The question was asked of me whether or not ASD precludes or encourages murder. I answered this by phone negatively and here is my later written replies to this researcher’s questions:
We talked about ASD in relation to murder and I checked my words this morning with AI and I was correct.
The scientific consensus is that ASD itself does not predispose individuals to violence;
FYI: https://search.brave.com/search?q=what+is+asd&source=web
And then:
We had known Len since the 1930s. Len was a bit off normal.
In 1930 and 1977 nobody knew of Autism, or anything of that nature on the Autism spectrum, ASD, ESR, Asperger’s or anything like that. We all described this sort of thing exactly like this.
He was always out to blow himself up in his work and what he owned. He tried to be superior to everyone all the time.
Ditto. These people have a generally low EQ and do not understand how their conduct is measured or seen by others. speak to me about Debbie and Weston sometime for examples.
Alan Thomas Snr 1977
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Demler was bringing sheep into his holding paddock. N ever mentioned the Crewes.
See Len Demler again. Demler told me he would be around the house until mi-day. Again he
never mentioned the Crewes.Ditto. Mentioned here because this was unusual. ASD to a tee.
D/S Phil Seaman 28.6.70
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I told Demler that I considered that he was the person who had removed Harvey Crewe’s
body from the Crewe household.Yes. He did.
I told him I was quite certain he had done this.Yes. Hutton knew this but remember that this fact only started as a hunch not as a fact that Hutton was told. Hutton suspected Len before he arrived and took the cow cover after he saw it first!
Demler made no answer whatsoever but continued looking at the floor and he offered no objection
whatsoever in being accused of doing this act.Ditto. Because LD did and knew he had been caught, Again ASD to a tee.
Following this he said to me ‘You think I used the wheelbarrow to remove the bodies don’t you?’Ditto. Significant because only someone who knew what happened then methinks would have said this. Now my money is with John not you sorry (name withheld]. To me the presence of brain matter and blood does not automatically mean that David was killed in the chair, sorry.
D/I BTN Hutton 7 July 1970
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Told me that losing his wife upset him as he was going to Africa. [LD had booked for an All
Black’s tour which he had to cancel when Maisey died].“as he was going to Africa”. The context? Is this 100%? If so this is ditto. Cause and effect = proof of ASD-like symptoms.
I told him that I considered he was responsible for removing the bodies from the house and for making an attempt to clean the carpet and for burning the cushion and the mat.
Ditto. With Pamela Ann and Leslee Sinton helping too.
Demler denied all these suggestions.Ditto. I forget where I wrote (book or blog) it but in 1970 it was a women’s job to raise the kids, housekeep and CLEAN which means also to clean up. LD May be right and you can’t use ASD to try to divine truth without alternative sources that can then be used to fact-find. See me for a better explanation although you are doing really well understanding ASD. Unless you’ve covered it up well (Your wife will tell me) you do not have a psychiatric illness (personal comments withheld]
I gained the impression he possibly did not commit the murder as when I suggested to him that he had done Harvey and Jeanette in he became quite perky,
Yes, again this is ASD to a tee. LD knew the truth that the Cops would find no evidence against him because he didn’t do it so of course he was perky!
but when one got to the suggestion that he removed the bodies his spirits dropped to a very low level. At times I considered he came within an ace of admitting this, and would think for a while, and would then give his silly small laugh.Ditto. ASD again. These guys really do not understand, do they?
I would say that Demler is a very stubborn individual and could be termed a psycho.Yes, 100% but this is another phrase that has changed over the years. In 1970 pscho meant to a cop literally mental, nuts, different and … ASD but ASD was unkown and very rare.
While I was talking to Demler and telling him that he removed the bodies we was quite agitated, snapping matches in half and continually pulling threads from his sports coat.
Ditto. So? And?
D/S/S Schultz 10 July 1970
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And more:
I put it to him that only Jeanette and Harvey had had a meal ands that obviously someone who knew them well had come to the house. I put it to him that the someone was obviously himself.
This is a guess under examination. I’m not sure why Hutton said this but LD ate with the Crewes normally (John said that LD’s daughter helped her Dad to eat daily not weekly).
Demler looked at the floor and merely remarked that he hadn’t been back to the house after the Tuesday night.
True. So LD accepted that fact. ASD says no lies so LD didn’t lie about it.
I asked him how can you explain blood of the same group as Jeanette’s being found on the front seat of your car when the Police seized it? He said ‘By Christ, I don’t know how it got there.
Ditto.
Mr Schultz asked me about this. I have nothing further to say on that.”
Ditto.
I noticed a further marked difference in Demler’s demeanour from my two earlier interviews with him. He was much more subdued on this occasion and his hands were shaking and he was obviously ill at ease.ASD cannot deal with the human reactions it doesn’t know about or understand. Daniel Evans showed me this in Auckland, Germany and South Africa..
He at no time strenuously denied having removed the bodies from the Crewe house.Ditto.
He appears to be one who may be suffering from some sort of mental disorder and I am satisfied that in his present state of mind he is determined not to tell the
Police anything that might help them in this enquiry.
Yes. Agreed. It’s now called ASD and it is a SPECTRUM of which we now talk. We are “on the spectrum” as we say.
I feel quite sure that he could tell us where the bodies of Mr and Mrs Crewe are if he wanted to.Ditto. Yes. As many up there learnt thanks to him and his leadership.
He is a ‘pig-headed’ type of person who has obviously made up his mind not to help. I think the constant interviews by the Police are starting to worry him.Yes and ditto. ASD all right!
D/I Hutton 9 July 1970
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Interview involving Detective Duncan, Graeme Hewson and Len Demler
Duncan: Gee, Harvey was a big strong fellow., He must have copped it.
Demler: Yeah,. He must have been got unaware from behind.Inside knowledge shared by a sufferer of ASD, exactly as John said. If asked, my money is on John’s take, not yours (name withheld]. And for multiple reasons too.
Hewson: It would take two or three fellows to put him down.Ditto. Bias as John pointed out. A bullet or two. Not sure why the second was required. A miss?
Demler: Yeah, it would take two or three. He must have got it suddenly. He must have been got from behind.Ditto. Taking the cop’s (a form of theft to us but not to a person with ASD) idea is typical ASD.
Duncan: You’ll have to find a manager for 7 years.
Demler: Why’s that?
Duncan: The farm won’t come free for seven years.
Demler: I’m not hanging around that long. I should have been in South Africa but I had to stay behind when Maisey died. Every winter from now on you won’t find me here. I’ll be in Brisbane playing bowls.
Duncan: It will be a long seven years.
Demler: It wont be that long without the bodies.Nothing to hide here because I didn’t do it.
Duncan” Oh yes it will Len.Cross purpose talking.
Demler: Well I’m not hanging around that long. I don’t want to work when I am old.
Note: When any mention was made about his daughter and Harvey, Demler gave a silly laugh.Ditto.
At 9am when moving sheep from one holding pen to another, Demler got wild with his dog Tip which would not obey any command given by Demler and was in a pen full of sheep worrying them. Demler threw a large clod of dirt at the dog and swore at it continually. By the time the dog got out of the pen and went to Demler, Demler was frothing at the mouth and spitting saliva. It was not controlled spitting but spitting in the form of saliva.Not sure why this story is here but it is typical of those suffering from any form of ASD.
Demler asked me how long we are going to be searching and said ‘You’re finishing up this week aren’t you?” I said ‘we could be here indefinitely.
Ditto from above. Typical ASD behaviour – simply unaware.
He said ‘I suppose you will be here until you get the old bastard”
The “old bastard” will likely be referring to the murderer from LD or perhaps LD took a feed from the cop?. How old was Bob at the time? 1970 Bob wasn’t too old? Either way this is propensity evidence and not critical.
Demler then remarked that he thought the searchers had last weekend off. I said ‘No, we will hang on until we find what we are looking for.’
He said ‘Oh, you’ll be here for lambing then, we won’t need any shepherds.’
Ditto.
Det C G Duncan job sheet 10 July 1970
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And more:
Interview involving Detective Duncan, Graeme Hewson and Len Demler
Duncan: Gee, Harvey was a big strong fellow., He must have copped it.
Demler: Yeah,. He must have been got unaware from behind.
Fearless sharing of inside knowledge. Typical Autism.
Hewson: It would take two or three fellows to put him down.
Demler: Yeah, it would take two or three. He must have got it suddenly. He must have been got from behind.
LD takes a feed from the cop’s words then repeats his inside knowledge – note fearlessly. No chair mentioned here!
Duncan: You’ll have to find a manager for 7 years.
Demler: Why’s that?
Duncan: The farm won’t come free for seven years.
Demler: I’m not hanging around that long. I should have been in South Africa but I had to
stay behind when Maisey died. Every winter from now on you won’t find me here. I’ll be in
Brisbane playing bowls.
Duncan: It will be a long seven years.
Demler: It wont be that long without the bodies.
Duncan” Oh yes it will Len.
Not sure why all this has been said or what Duncan is angling at.
Demler: Well I’m not hanging around that long. I don’t want to work when I am old.
Note: When any mention was made about his daughter and Harvey, Demler gave a silly
laugh.
Maybe a laugh of embarrassment? Definitely unusual.
At 9am when moving sheep from one holding pen to another, Demler got wild with his dog
Tip which would not obey any command given by Demler and was in a pen full of sheep
worrying them. Demler threw a large clod of dirt at the dog and swore at it continually. By the time the dog got out of the pen and went to Demler, Demler was frothing at the mouth and spitting saliva. It was not controlled spitting but spitting in the form of saliva.
Anger is common with ASD sufferers but also in non-ASD psychiatric things too.
Demler asked me how long we are going to be searching and said ‘You’re finishing up this
week aren’t you?” I said ‘we could be here indefinitely. He said ‘I suppose you will be here
until you get the old bastard”
Demler then remarked that he thought the searchers had last weekend off. I said ‘No, we will hang on until we find what we are looking for.’
He said ‘Oh, you’ll be here for lambing then, we won’t need any shepherds.’
Det C G Duncan job sheet 10 July 1970
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I wished him to go with me to the Auckland city mortuary to see if he could identify the body as that of his son in law, David Harvey Crewe. He was not emotionally upset in any way and appeared quite at ease.
Typical Autism and a key.
Interview:
Q: Len why didn’t you help with the Police search after that date (ie 22 June)?
A: I didn’t want to when I knew the Police and some of the others thought I had done it. I got my back up (laughed).
The laugh and the whole thing – this is typical Autistic behaviour. The back up comment could be true but it could also be an excuse too. If the latter then he would remember his lies and fudge it if ever forgotten or caught out. If the former then he’d have no trouble longterm. Len would have known the foolishness of lies by his mid teens though so it is likely to true. Not sure on this one without context or more info .
Q: Len, throughout the whole enquiry you have not shown any concern at all over Jeanette and Harvey going missing. Not once did you contact me or come to see me at Pukekawa to enquire if we were making any progress.
A: No I haven’t. I got my back up and I didn’t want anything to do with any of you.
LD has repeated this comment so it is likely to be true.
I said to Demler it would appear to me that Jeanette was first knocked out and then shot. He replied ‘No she was not knocked out, she was just shot. You are only trying to trick me.”
Len has made a serious claim here and according to John, LD is correct here. John could also have taken his feed from here. Not sure but my money is on LD, not Hutton.
D/I Hutton 21 September 1970
Recapping this all then for the record putting the answer in a simple sentence . . . ASD does not preclude murder per se but it does make it very unlikely. Len definitely arranged the Crewe murders but was too clever to and never did pull the triggers.
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